16-04-2024 17:43
Giovanni ANTOLA
Bonjour,Trouvé sous paille humide, autour d'un je
17-04-2024 10:44
Bernard CLESSE
Juste à côté du cône avec "Hyphodiscus ayelii"
16-04-2024 22:53
Bernard CLESSE
Bonsoir à toutes et tous,Pourriez-vous m'aider à
Asco noir
Gilbert MOYNE,
14-09-2012 13:47
Disque noi, 1-3 mm de diamètre, sessile.
Spores 16-20 x 4,5-5 µm, elliptiques, 1-septées, noirâtres,
Partaphyses avec le dernier article renflé en ampoule (5 µm) et couvet de restes brunâtres.
Asques : environ 80 x 20 (je n'ai jamais pu discerner la base) contenant 8 spores en général bisériées, fortement bleuissant à l'iode sur le tiers supérieur.
Merci de votre aide et dites-moi si c'est une espèce courante en France ou ailleurs.
Merci à tous.
Gilbert
Alain GARDIENNET,
14-09-2012 15:07
Re : Asco noir
Salut Gilbert,
as-tu regardé du côté des lichens ?
Le joli pyréno poilu à côté est-il Lasiosphaeris hirsuta ?
Alain
as-tu regardé du côté des lichens ?
Le joli pyréno poilu à côté est-il Lasiosphaeris hirsuta ?
Alain
Hans-Otto Baral,
14-09-2012 17:15
Re : Asco noir
Hi Gilbert
this is a Dactylospora and I suppose D. stygia. Patrice Tanchaud had it in Poitevin, and Mauricio Marin in Spain (Basque). I saw a single specimen from S-Germany, and one from Puerto Rico.
Only in the one from Puerto Rico I saw a longitudinal striation very similar to your drawing, see below, the other finds appear to have smooth spores.
I have quite a lot of collections with much shorter spores (below 13 µm) which I also identify as stygia, but so far I do not know which of them is the right stygia.
Zotto
this is a Dactylospora and I suppose D. stygia. Patrice Tanchaud had it in Poitevin, and Mauricio Marin in Spain (Basque). I saw a single specimen from S-Germany, and one from Puerto Rico.
Only in the one from Puerto Rico I saw a longitudinal striation very similar to your drawing, see below, the other finds appear to have smooth spores.
I have quite a lot of collections with much shorter spores (below 13 µm) which I also identify as stygia, but so far I do not know which of them is the right stygia.
Zotto
Gilbert MOYNE,
14-09-2012 17:45
Re : Asco noir
Merci Zotto.
Celà confirme la piste qu'on m'avait fournie par ailleurs.
Gilbert
Celà confirme la piste qu'on m'avait fournie par ailleurs.
Gilbert
Gilbert MOYNE,
14-09-2012 17:55
Re : Asco noir
Salut Alain,
Pour le petit noir poilu, possible que ce soit en effet Lasiosphaeria hirsuta mais je n'ai pas encore de spores septées, seulement des cylindriques coudées. Différence avec L. strigosa ?
Si intéressé, tu me dis
Gilbert
Pour le petit noir poilu, possible que ce soit en effet Lasiosphaeria hirsuta mais je n'ai pas encore de spores septées, seulement des cylindriques coudées. Différence avec L. strigosa ?
Si intéressé, tu me dis
Gilbert
Alain GARDIENNET,
14-09-2012 18:08
Re : Asco noir
Salut Gilbert,
Pour les "disques", il vaut mieux laisser Zotto parler.
Les différences entre hirsuta et strigosa sont importantes. A commencer par la macro, mais surtout la forme des spores, la taille de celle-ci.
Je pense que ton espèce est classique, mais je n'ai pas trop le temps en ce moment de plonger dessus. Mais si tu veux, tu peux déjà m'envoyer une photo de tes spores en privé. A ce moment là, si ce n'est pas classique, je saurai trouver du temps.
Alain
Pour les "disques", il vaut mieux laisser Zotto parler.
Les différences entre hirsuta et strigosa sont importantes. A commencer par la macro, mais surtout la forme des spores, la taille de celle-ci.
Je pense que ton espèce est classique, mais je n'ai pas trop le temps en ce moment de plonger dessus. Mais si tu veux, tu peux déjà m'envoyer une photo de tes spores en privé. A ce moment là, si ce n'est pas classique, je saurai trouver du temps.
Alain
Alessio Pierotti,
14-09-2012 19:52
Re : Asco noir
For Dactylospota stygia (Berk. & M.A. Curtis) Hafellner [=Patellaria stygia Berkeley & M.A. Curtis, Grevillea 4 (29: 2. 1875 – I can send You the original descriptions] has been described a variety for the specimens with profound ascospore striation: D. stygia var. striata Hafellner [Nova Hedwigia Beih. 62: 148. 1979 – not seen !]. In the attachment you have a recent description of the species !
Alessio
PS: sorry for my English...
Alessio
PS: sorry for my English...
Hosoya_Japanese_Discomycetes_2
Alessio Pierotti,
14-09-2012 19:54
Re : Asco noir
In the attachment You have a work about Dactylospora with a Key to the Known Species in Scandinavia (D. stygia is not in the key !)
Hans-Otto Baral,
14-09-2012 20:35
Re : Asco noir
I see that Hafellner gives (12.5-)14.2-19(-20) x 4-6(-8) µm, a rather wide range especially in width, but this excludes my short-spored collections. Distinctly striate spores (var. striata) are known to him only from subtropical and tropical regions.
Zotto
Zotto
Gilbert MOYNE,
14-09-2012 20:44
Re : Asco noir
Un grand merci pour ces articles.
Gilbert
Gilbert
Alessio Pierotti,
18-09-2012 19:53
Re : Asco noir
Hans you observations "Distinctly striate spores (var. striata) are known to him only from subtropical and tropical regions" is very interesting. This different distribution of phenotypes deserves to be investigated.
Ciao, Alessio
Ciao, Alessio
Hans-Otto Baral,
18-09-2012 20:02
Re : Asco noir
Hi Alessio
I have actually seen only one tropical collection. Guy Marson is keen on Dactylosporas. He found that closely related species of his country differ in the type of ornamentation (smooth, warted, striate).
Zotto
I have actually seen only one tropical collection. Guy Marson is keen on Dactylosporas. He found that closely related species of his country differ in the type of ornamentation (smooth, warted, striate).
Zotto
Alessio Pierotti,
18-09-2012 20:10
Re : Asco noir
One thing that is often missing in mycology, also because of the difficulties to realize it, is a study of populations. It would be interesting to see whether these species that differ in the type of ornamentation have areal disjoint or overlapping, and if they grow in different ecological conditions or substrates
Hans-Otto Baral,
18-09-2012 20:15
Re : Asco noir
Well, the reality is often so, that you need to collect more or less "blind" because you otherwise overlook the small ascos. At home you are faced with a huge amount of species, as soon as you have made some dozens of collections. You will realize that many taxa are not very host-specific, and often different ones grow mixed on the same branch. I agree, there are undoubtedly strong tendencies of host selection, and also climatic preferences. But the huge amount of species and the difficulty to identify them makes such population studies a matter that takes a whole lifespan. This is my experience with Orbilia, and Dactylosporas behave not very different.
Zotto
Zotto
Alessio Pierotti,
19-09-2012 08:43
Re : Asco noir
Hans what is your idea of the concept of species? Without entering the field of molecular biology, which are the criteria that allow you to say that a species is really a species?
Hans-Otto Baral,
19-09-2012 09:10
Re : Asco noir
I cannot help you much with this question. It is simply a never ending fight and a lot of belief, even if you have genetic results. Sometimes you think you know your species very well, and then comes a new insight, maybe an anamorph, that throws new light on the matter. A frequent mistake is to think to know a species well, and not to documentate anything when studying a new record.
But it is a fact that several macroscopically very similar species may grow in close association. Sometimes they are also microscopically similar, but often they are highly different. And we have cases were 5 or 10 such species grow as a mixture.
But it is a fact that several macroscopically very similar species may grow in close association. Sometimes they are also microscopically similar, but often they are highly different. And we have cases were 5 or 10 such species grow as a mixture.