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S/ Scirpus sylvaticus - aspect de Cistella.
Luc Bailly,
21-05-2009 15:10
Bonjour à tous,Je sèche sur une récolte de minuscules apothécies (la graine de bouleau donne l'échelle) sur feuilles mortes de Scirpus sylvaticus (surtout face inférieure des feuilles), dans une prairie humide ardennaise. Les apothécies sont presque hyalines et courtement poilues, sessiles.
Luc Bailly,
21-05-2009 15:17
Re:S/ Scirpus sylvaticus - aspect de Cistella.
Autre aspect, de plus près.
Luc Bailly,
21-05-2009 15:17
Re:S/ Scirpus sylvaticus - aspect de Cistella.
Au microscope, voici une apothécie complète. Elle est minuscule. Asques octosporés, spores bisériées, de l'ordre de 28-29 x 7.5-8 µ; pas de croziers observés. Spores hyalines, guttulées aux pôles, 8.5-10 x 2.5-3 µ. Paraphyses non remarquables, filiformes, lisses, x 1µ. Poils courts, hyalins, verruqueux, x 3 µ environ. J'ai conservé cette récolte en cas de besoin.
Luc Bailly,
21-05-2009 15:17
Re:S/ Scirpus sylvaticus - aspect de Cistella.
Asques.
Luc Bailly,
21-05-2009 15:18
Re:S/ Scirpus sylvaticus - aspect de Cistella.
Spores.
Luc Bailly,
21-05-2009 15:19
Re:S/ Scirpus sylvaticus - aspect de Cistella.
Asques R dans IKI, apex dextrinoïde.
Luc Bailly,
21-05-2009 15:19
Re:S/ Scirpus sylvaticus - aspect de Cistella.
Poils.
Michel Hairaud,
21-05-2009 15:21
Re:S/ Scirpus sylvaticus - aspect de Cistella.
Oups, je retire ce que j'ai dit, tes données micro sont tombées dans l'entretemps;
Amitiés
Michel
Amitiés
Michel
Luc Bailly,
21-05-2009 15:38
Re:S/ Scirpus sylvaticus - aspect de Cistella.
Je rejette Clavidisculum caricis parce que:
- les spores de cette récolte sont nettement plus courtes que celles de C. caricis;
- les poils ne sont pas renflés au sommet de cette façon et sont verruqueux sur une plus grande longueur.
- En outre, C. caricis est uniquement mentionné sur Carex.
La seule description que je possède de C. caricis est celle de Ellis & Ellis.
(données micro postées avec la première photo au microscope)
- les spores de cette récolte sont nettement plus courtes que celles de C. caricis;
- les poils ne sont pas renflés au sommet de cette façon et sont verruqueux sur une plus grande longueur.
- En outre, C. caricis est uniquement mentionné sur Carex.
La seule description que je possède de C. caricis est celle de Ellis & Ellis.
(données micro postées avec la première photo au microscope)
Stip Helleman,
21-05-2009 20:03
Re:S/ Scirpus sylvaticus - aspect de Cistella.
Salut Luc
This is a difficult group the graminicolous and Cypericolous Cistella's with lots of incomplete descriptions
Using the key of Raitviir 2004 it brings me to Cistella typhae, a species close to fugiens and graminicola, unfortunately there is nothing about the presence or absense of croziers nor in Svrceck's original diagnosis i can find anything but his linedrawings vague suggest the presence of croziers judging the shape of the ascusbase.
C. caricis and graminicola have much more swollen hairs and sporesize differs
fugiens has shorter asci according to Raitviir arising from croziers
Best regards Stip
This is a difficult group the graminicolous and Cypericolous Cistella's with lots of incomplete descriptions
Using the key of Raitviir 2004 it brings me to Cistella typhae, a species close to fugiens and graminicola, unfortunately there is nothing about the presence or absense of croziers nor in Svrceck's original diagnosis i can find anything but his linedrawings vague suggest the presence of croziers judging the shape of the ascusbase.
C. caricis and graminicola have much more swollen hairs and sporesize differs
fugiens has shorter asci according to Raitviir arising from croziers
Best regards Stip
Luc Bailly,
21-05-2009 20:30
Re:S/ Scirpus sylvaticus - aspect de Cistella.
Thank you, Stip.
I will check again for croziers or not then, and this aside, I'll keep my description and the specimen, just in case, but I don't know if I'll spend much time on it again. Anyway, it's from a place I often visit.
Could you send me this key, just in case?
I will check again for croziers or not then, and this aside, I'll keep my description and the specimen, just in case, but I don't know if I'll spend much time on it again. Anyway, it's from a place I often visit.
Could you send me this key, just in case?
Hans-Otto Baral,
21-05-2009 20:54
Re:S/ Scirpus sylvaticus - aspect de Cistella.
Dear Luc & Stip
it seems an interesting species. I would exclude fugiens because of too wide spores and asci (comparison in living state) and hemiamyloid (IKI red) napical rings. I have no good overview on what I all have seen in Cistella, but I am looking forward to the ascus base :-)
Zotto
it seems an interesting species. I would exclude fugiens because of too wide spores and asci (comparison in living state) and hemiamyloid (IKI red) napical rings. I have no good overview on what I all have seen in Cistella, but I am looking forward to the ascus base :-)
Zotto
Luc Bailly,
21-05-2009 23:21
Re:S/ Scirpus sylvaticus - aspect de Cistella.
Hi Zotto, thanks for your reply.
I've found fugiens recently and came to that conclusion also.
Here are two photos of the structure I saw at the ascus base, but I never saw clear croziers in this specimen. If you don't recognize a crozier on those photos, we can think there aren't, probably.
I've found fugiens recently and came to that conclusion also.
Here are two photos of the structure I saw at the ascus base, but I never saw clear croziers in this specimen. If you don't recognize a crozier on those photos, we can think there aren't, probably.
Luc Bailly,
21-05-2009 23:22
Re:S/ Scirpus sylvaticus - aspect de Cistella.
second photo
Hans-Otto Baral,
21-05-2009 23:33
Re:S/ Scirpus sylvaticus - aspect de Cistella.
Yes, that looks very much like without croziers. Perhaps my C. subfugiens comes into consideration but I do not know if this reacts hemiamyloid.
Zotto
Zotto
Luc Bailly,
22-05-2009 08:16
Re:S/ Scirpus sylvaticus - aspect de Cistella.
Thanks, Zotto. If I find other specimens, are you interested if I send you some?
Hans-Otto Baral,
22-05-2009 11:51
Re:S/ Scirpus sylvaticus - aspect de Cistella.
Perhaps you may send it to Stip, I assume he has more time than I :-)
I receive too much fresh Helotiales specimens also this year to concentrate enough on Orbilia.
Zotto
I receive too much fresh Helotiales specimens also this year to concentrate enough on Orbilia.
Zotto
Stip Helleman,
22-05-2009 23:20
Re:S/ Scirpus sylvaticus - aspect de Cistella.
Of coarse nobody want to delay the Orbilia mongraph, but i doubt if i have much more time than Zotto :( , but if you want Luc you can send me fresh living specimens next week i am at home. But no guarantee is given of a better solution than the already given hints.
Stip Helleman
Sweelinck 78
5831 KT Boxmeer
Pays Bas
Stip Helleman
Sweelinck 78
5831 KT Boxmeer
Pays Bas
Luc Bailly,
01-06-2009 12:31
Re:S/ Scirpus sylvaticus - aspect de Cistella.
Hi Stip,
I can send you a new sample (from another station nearby) of what I think to be the same taxon: IKI hemiamyloid, no croziers, and spores a bit tinier (7.5-8 x 2-2.2 µ). It's always on Scirpus sylvaticus and seems fairly common in Northern Belgian Ardenne.
Cheers - Luc BAILLY.
I can send you a new sample (from another station nearby) of what I think to be the same taxon: IKI hemiamyloid, no croziers, and spores a bit tinier (7.5-8 x 2-2.2 µ). It's always on Scirpus sylvaticus and seems fairly common in Northern Belgian Ardenne.
Cheers - Luc BAILLY.
Hans-Otto Baral,
01-06-2009 12:40
Re:S/ Scirpus sylvaticus - aspect de Cistella.
Dear Luc
Stip told me that he is going to Greece today for 2 weeks. So I am sorry he will not be able to look at the Cistella. Perhaps you will find it after two weeks again?
Zotto
Stip told me that he is going to Greece today for 2 weeks. So I am sorry he will not be able to look at the Cistella. Perhaps you will find it after two weeks again?
Zotto
Luc Bailly,
01-06-2009 13:07
Re:S/ Scirpus sylvaticus - aspect de Cistella.
Oh my, okay. So Zotto, if you're interested, I can send it to you, or I can put this sample in my herbarium. My places ain't far from home.
Except in case of dry weather, I think it'll be easy to me to find it again and to send it to Stip in about two weeks. I'm keeping an eye on it.
Except in case of dry weather, I think it'll be easy to me to find it again and to send it to Stip in about two weeks. I'm keeping an eye on it.
Hans-Otto Baral,
01-06-2009 13:32
Re:S/ Scirpus sylvaticus - aspect de Cistella.
I think it is better you keep it. I must try to get as little Helotiales sent as possible :-(
thanks
zotto
thanks
zotto
Luc Bailly,
01-06-2009 14:30
Re:S/ Scirpus sylvaticus - aspect de Cistella.
Okay then. The place is easy to reach, I'll go and gather for fresh material at time.
Guy Garcia,
01-06-2009 22:55
Re:S/ Scirpus sylvaticus - aspect de Cistella.
Bonsoir Luc,
Si la récolte n'est pas encore séchée, je serais intéressé de pouvoir l'étudier. L'absence de crochet et la réaction hémiamyloide est seulement connue pour Cistella grumosa (Mycotaxon 91 : 406). Mais cette dernière pousse sur feuilles de Castanea, Acer et Quercus. Si la taille des spores pourrait éventuellement correspondre avec ta récolte, la taille des asques est beaucoup plus longue 45-60 (75) µm.
Au cas où, voici mon adresse
18 rue saint-Louis
34600 Bédarieux
France
Amitiés, Guy
Si la récolte n'est pas encore séchée, je serais intéressé de pouvoir l'étudier. L'absence de crochet et la réaction hémiamyloide est seulement connue pour Cistella grumosa (Mycotaxon 91 : 406). Mais cette dernière pousse sur feuilles de Castanea, Acer et Quercus. Si la taille des spores pourrait éventuellement correspondre avec ta récolte, la taille des asques est beaucoup plus longue 45-60 (75) µm.
Au cas où, voici mon adresse
18 rue saint-Louis
34600 Bédarieux
France
Amitiés, Guy
Luc Bailly,
02-06-2009 08:15
Re:S/ Scirpus sylvaticus - aspect de Cistella.
Ah, et bien, j'ai bien fait de laisser ma récolte au frigo. Je pars durant 2 jours pour le travail, et je m'occuperai du courrier en fin de semaine.
Amitiés - LUC.
Amitiés - LUC.
Luc Bailly,
05-06-2009 17:02
Re:S/ Scirpus sylvaticus - aspect de Cistella.
Guy: le courrier est parti aujourd'hui, avec une partie de la récolte de Cistella de ce jour-là. Normalement, cela devrait s'être bien conservé, au frais et maintenu humide.
Amitiés - LUC.
Amitiés - LUC.