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Durella macrospora
Tsuyoshi Hosoya, 28-03-2020 14:15
Dear all,

I recently found a specimen of Durella macrospora which agrees well with the registered sequence. This will be a new report from Japan.


To confirm, I would like to see Medardi G. 2004. Documents mycologiques 33: 29-35, which was cited in your article in Willdenowia (47: 271-291).


Is there anybody who can provide me with the copy ?

François Valade, 28-03-2020 15:01
François Valade
Re : Durella macrospora
Dear Tsuyoshi

please check your mailbox.

regards

François
Christian Lechat, 28-03-2020 15:03
Christian Lechat
Re : Durella macrospora
Hi Tsuyoshi,

you can download this paper here: https://ns356855.ip-91-121-143.eu/smnf/flip-DM/Fascicule 33/mobile/index.html

Regards,

Christian
Hans-Otto Baral, 28-03-2020 17:48
Hans-Otto Baral
Re : Durella macrospora
Dear Tsuyoshi

I fear the Medardi paper will not help you much. There is in fact an amyloid and an inamyloid form of D. macrospora, and when your sequence fits so well uploaded ones, I guess you have the amyloid one. Medardi reports inamyloid asci.As for the type I am not sure.

Attached a small phylotree showing you the situation.

I recommend to visit my homepage and got to Ascomycetes illustrations,

there to Helotiales, Durella group, Durella.

Zotto
  • message #62363
Erwin Gruber, 29-03-2020 15:41
Re : Durella macrospora
Dear colleagues, 

no, i do not know Durella macrospora, or even know where to place the genus rightly. 
Just looked at this thread as i saw it was done by Tsuyoshi. 
I do answer, because i liked to say sorry for missing to publish my results concerning systematics and nomenclature of genus Stamnaria. Perhaps one reason, Tsuyoshi why your concept of this genus in Mycosystema 32(3) 2013 could not be right or complete. 
I will explain more in detail at separate thread, or personal message, just tell i do agree with species concept as presented by Danny Haelewaters & al. 2018 in publication of S. yugrana. 

My main question to you all: Zotto wrote "There is in fact an amyloid and an inamyloid form of D. macrospora", so far so good and debatable. I differed between Stamnaria americana as having strictly anamyloid asci, versus amyloid S. laetissima comb. ined. (bas. Peziza laetissima Cesati 1846) in wide sense. 
When reading description of S. americana from Hokkaido in Tsuyoshi & al. 2013, this does agree with the identified species, except it got J+ asci. 
So that raises the question: will this ascomycete be more close to S. laetissima, or shall it represent amyloid S. americana. Shall this be proved by sequencing a wider range of samples of S. americana - laetissima alignement? I do know plenty of specimen from N hemispere, yet to Java, Indonesia.

Yes, i do intend to publish hitherto unpublished names of several Stamnaria spp., as these names are more than 20 years provisorial, so i could not ID new reports correctly.
My E-Mail: gruberwin0529 [at] gmail.com without space and @ for sure

Best regards, Erwin

Stamnaria-americana

Stamnaria


Equisetum infected by genus Stamnaria
Hans-Otto Baral, 29-03-2020 16:19
Hans-Otto Baral
Re : Durella macrospora
Hello Erwin!

nice to hear from you.

About amyloid/inamyloid asci in Helotiales I made the experience that it may in one case mean two species, and in another case only one. We may not think that a system auch as ascus amyloidity can be applied to every group.

For instance, I learned just now that Rutstroemia maritima may occur with or without amyloid ring. I believed it before, but now there is molecular evidence.

For D. macrospora I was quite uncertain, until these sequences became available. But they are still too few to be sure, therefore I am curious about Tsuyoshi's answer.

God that you want to take up your unpublished taxa!

Zotto
Erwin Gruber, 29-03-2020 18:07
Re : Durella macrospora
Hallo lieber Zotto!

Yes, time to come back here after long delay. Thanks a lot for your kind response! 
As with you, i argued that loss of amyloidy of apical ascus structure is not necessarily a gap diverging species' in general. As you said, sometimes yes, yet not as a rule. Still the loss of amyloid substance (whatever it is chemically) is no big matter as long the structure works well. Hence i could imagine J+ beside J- races within species, still capable of fully fertile interbreeding. 
From that point of view, Tsuyoshi & al. may be right by IDing as Stamnaria americana.
Consequently my Id keys using an-amyloidy of S. americana will work in America and Europe, but perhaps not in far E Asia.
I am as well curious for Tsuyoshi's answer and experience. You migh have a look at linked new occurrences of Stamnaria (prob.) americana, and S. sp. indet. at iNaturalist. Most of these were found by me on photos of Equisetum hyemale by watching closely.

Indeed, it is high time to publish new species validly. This shall happen before end of 2020. Perhaps Danny Haelewaters, or another colleage liked to contribute with sequencing data. I need to create a good concept for publication. we may discuss at separate thread about partizipation. 

Best regards to all, keep care of your health

Erwin
Hans-Otto Baral, 29-03-2020 18:36
Hans-Otto Baral
Re : Durella macrospora
Nice link on naturalist!

I am sure Danny wants to contribute with his older data and perhaps with newly gained ones. At the moment the universities are closed.

About amyloid rings I wrote in my Lugol paper, I am still quite convinced that they originate in helicoid polysaccharides, in which the iodine is incorporated. The helicoid structure enables enormous stretching important for an effective discharge. There is no doubt that the loss of the ring will much diminish the distance to which the spores are shot. Inamyloid asci are usually coupled with drought-tolerance. I can imagine that this is also the case in S. americana. Perhaps amyloid americana grows less exposed?

Zotto
Erwin Gruber, 29-03-2020 20:25
Re : Durella macrospora
Zotto and all together,

so we turn back to amyloidy and use of apical ascus ring. 
Well, you may be right when telling that fungi with inamyloid asci are correlated with (more) drought tolerance in general, and perhaps these may not discharge spores at same speed as amyloid relatives. 
In special case of Stamnaria americana, ecologic conditions of infected host populations will be pretty the same at all continents. In fact chances of "far" distance dispersal are by appoximately zero, as sustained by own observations as well as infection experiments. Disciform ascocarps are best adapted to shrivel at !relatively! lower air humidity, and rehydrate quickest in contact with water. Saying spores, relatively large, with thin walls, will consequently be released at air humid weather conditions in cold season. As foggy, or rainy days with low to zero wind. Ascospores won't be transported for long distance, or surpass dehydration, but infect shoots at close proximity. Main reason why disjunct, small populations of hosts stay free from infection, as well as large ones, when distance to infection sources is too wide. 
I do assume this is the same in all occurrences of this species, again supported by visible conditions of infected, and free horsetail occurrences. Saying "the wetter the better" plus "the closer the better" for the acomycete, not necessarily their hosts. 

Loosing the amyloid structure, so spores will perhaps be expelled somewhat less wide, won't change a lot to that coevoluted adaption, hence will have happened by chance.
As with many ascomycetes this feature of apical structure will be neccessary for dispersal, this could be lost in case of Stamnaria americana. What may, will happen.

May you agree, colleagues?

Erwin
Erwin Gruber, 29-03-2020 22:22
Re : Durella macrospora
Dear Tsuyoshi, 

since you wrote in 2013 you had not found another occurrence of Equisetum hyemale infected by apparent amyloid Stamnaria americana, i liked to bring a potential new find to your attention. 

This is not in the vicinity of Higashimogoto, but in the southern part of Hokkaido, still needs verification at time, as the fungus is not clearly visible at photo. Till now i turned out to interprete right, please see linked occurrences of Stamnaria at my first response to here. 
Stamnaria in southwestern Hokkaido? 

As this place is not too far from Sapporo, it shall be easy to prove for the fungus.

Best regards

Erwin