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mysterious Octospora?
Björn Wergen, 23-10-2011 10:56
Björn WergenHi

on yesterdays tour I have found a special bryoparasitic fungus associated with 2 mosses, I think Bryum sp and Dicranella sp. Macroscopically similarities with Octospora phagospora, but more with a orange shade and tiny hyaline hairs (see photo). Microscopically it seems to be similar to Octospora similis, but with smaller spores (O. similis > 10µm), or to Octospora orthotricha, which has obviously larger spores. I also thought about a Neottiella, but the size of the spores does not fit to any specimen I know about...so what is it?

Here are the details:
Fruitbody 0,5-1,2 mm, pale orange-yellow, with small, hyalin hairs. Spores 16-18x8,5-10µm, with 2 vakuoles in nearly each spore, only about 5-10% with only one vakuole, ellipsoid to ellispoid-fusiform, sometimes asymmetrical, with a distinct, warty ornamentation, warts variabel, mostly single, but sometimes connected with small ridges, NOT forming a net (see photos). Asci 130-160x11-13µm, with 8 spores, uniseriat, short stalked. Paraphyses 3-4µm, apical up to 4,5 (5)µm, septate, filled with pale orange pigments. Hairs 70-90x10µm, hyalin, septate.

Associated with mosses on a wet brookside. Only 2 fruitbodies (the second one isn't checked yet).



regards and thanks for help,
kazuya
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Peter Welt, 23-10-2011 12:09
Peter Welt
Re : mysterious Octospora?
Hi Kazama,

If hair is present, it will be quite a Neottiela. Also, at the end pointed spores would fit well to the genre. Except for the size of the spores, it fits so good. The ornament and the oil droplets say Neottiela vivida var. microspora Kazuya var nov. ;-)

Wenn Haare vorhanden sind, wird es schon eine Neottiela sein. Auch die, am ende spitzen Sporen würden gut zu der Gattung passen. Bis auf die Größe der Sporen passt es ja gut. Das Ornament und die Öltropfen sagen Neottiela vivida var. microspora Kazuya var. nov.


Peter
Björn Wergen, 23-10-2011 12:40
Björn Wergen
Re : mysterious Octospora?
Hi Peter,

thank you for your opinion. That is exactly my problem :D it looks like Neottiella vivida, but with this spore size? Perhaps someone else knows a species with this features, it is still mysterious...

Jedenfalls hat der Pilz nicht "Neottiella vivida var. microspora" gerufen ^^

lg kazuya
Björn Wergen, 23-10-2011 16:26
Björn Wergen
Re : mysterious Octospora?
Here are new photos of the Neottiella sp. (I have found another fruitbody).
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Peter Welt, 23-10-2011 16:31
Peter Welt
Re : mysterious Octospora?
Trotzdem noch zu klein. Am besten Dr. Benkert zusende.

Gruß Peter
Raúl Tena Lahoz, 23-10-2011 16:42
Raúl Tena Lahoz
Re : mysterious Octospora?
Hi Kazama
Do you have micropictures of the marginal hairs? Are they pointed? 
If they are not pointed, then Octospora meslinii can be an option.
Cheers,
Raúl
Björn Wergen, 23-10-2011 16:43
Björn Wergen
Re : mysterious Octospora?
Hab ich mir auch schon gedacht, ein Fk ist ja noch da.

gruß kaz
Björn Wergen, 23-10-2011 16:46
Björn Wergen
Re : mysterious Octospora?
Hi Raul,

they look quite like the paraphyses and are cylindric (if they are not paraphyes), I didn't see any pointed end cells.

Raúl Tena Lahoz, 23-10-2011 17:06
Raúl Tena Lahoz
Re : mysterious Octospora?
Ok, then for me it is an Octospora. I find Octospora meslinii on Tortula subulata and the ornamentation is quite similar to your find, but my spores usually have only one big oil drop plus another little one, or only one big oil drop. I attach a couple of images. 
So we have different moss and different oil pattern... an adaptation to a new host? Who knows... maybe there is another that fits with your characters.
Raúl
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Björn Wergen, 23-10-2011 20:22
Björn Wergen
Re : mysterious Octospora?
Many thanks Raúl, for your help and pictures. Your finding is has interesting similarities to my "Octospora", and you have to know that I am not a specialist for mosses, so it can be that Tortula is also possible (I remember that the moss was quite interesting for me...it did not look like Bryum). I checked images and it can also be Tortula ruralis, especially because of the habitat. 

A further question is now, if the presence of one or two oil drops is significant for the determination of Octospora meslinii or if this feature is inside its variability. Or not? What would you say?

regards, kaz
Gilbert MOYNE, 24-10-2011 09:18
Re : mysterious Octospora?
Bonjour,
Il me semble que Octospora meslinii est liée à Grimmia pulvinata.
Pourquoi ne pas envisager Octospora orthotrica (spores (15) 17-19(20)  x  10-12.
Un peu larges c'est vrai...
Gilbert
Björn Wergen, 24-10-2011 10:46
Björn Wergen
Re : mysterious Octospora?
merci Gilbert :)

but O. orthotricha also has only one oil drop, which has a central position and the spores are 10-12,5µm broad, which does not really fit to my finding. My experience shows methat O. orthotricha grows with Orthotricha on barks and stones during winter half year. It does not also fit to the habitat of my "O. cf meslinii". 

I have a third fruitbody in the plastic box. It will be on the way to D. Benkert, perhaps he can tell us what it is ;)

regards, kaz
Raúl Tena Lahoz, 24-10-2011 17:13
Raúl Tena Lahoz
Re : mysterious Octospora?
Hi Kazama & Gilbert

Well, I always thought that my collections were Octospora meslinii because of what appears in the key of Caillet & Moyne in "Clé du determination du genre Octospora et des genres voisins". There they call it Octospora melina var. meslinii, but in my opinion Octospora melina has shorter spores with a very different shape so I prefer to call it Octospora meslinii. The data figured in Caillet & Moyne´s key fit good with my collection though no there is no info about spore guttulation.


I will try to answer your question, Kazama, about oil drops in spores. I think it is an important character that sometimes can help to define a species. But it is also possible that in some species it is somewhat variable and then not so important. It is as the host, some species are linked to a specific host, but other species have a wider range of hosts. In the species that I found here in my area, which I call Octospora meslinii (always on Tortula subulata), I have three different sites where I found it. In site 1, spores have one big oil drop or one big plus a little one (never so big as the main one). And in site 2 and 3 (about 80km far away from site 1) mostly all spores have only one oil drop, rarely two. The three collections share the moss, colour (poorly orange), abundant anchoring hyphae, ornament pattern and spore measures (site 3 has a slightly different morphology (maybe because of matureless). So as you see I have a variation in my finds, but never seen spores with two nearly equal oils drops as seen in your spores. If I compare it to your find, spore guttulation pattern is very different, also the host, and mine reach a higher width up to 10-12 µm, so who knows if it is the same species. Maybe only molecular studies can find a difference? I don´t know.


By the way I´m really interested in knowing Benkert´s opinion about your collection.


But I never seen Le Gal´s description or that of Svreck & Kubicka, so maybe I am wrong and mine isn´t Octospora meslinii?


Somebody has the original description of Madame Le Gal as Humaria meslinii in "Un Humaria nouveau et un Lamprospora nord-américain récoltés en France" in volume 4 of "Revue de Mycologie", pag. 133-139, specially pag. 133.


And this article of Svrcek & Kubicka?: "Deuxième contribution à la connaissance des Discomycètes operculés de la region de l´étang "Dvoriste" en Sud-Bohême" in volume 17 of "Ceská Mykologie", pag. 61-70, and specially pag. 67 where they transferHumaria meslinii Le Gal to Octospora meslinii (Le Gal) Svrcek & Kubicka.


Thanks in advance,
Raúl

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Björn Wergen, 25-10-2011 09:02
Björn Wergen
Re : mysterious Octospora?
Thank you, Raúl, I think your finding fits very well to Octospora meslinii. I also have this key and some others, but not the original description :( 

regards,kaz
Björn Wergen, 02-11-2011 23:02
Björn Wergen
Re : mysterious Octospora?
Hi,

BENKERT has determined the specimen as Octospora fissidentis (assoziated with Fissidens bryoides).

regards, kaz
Raúl Tena Lahoz, 03-11-2011 15:53
Raúl Tena Lahoz
Re : mysterious Octospora?
Hi Kaz

So there was Fisidens bryiodes on your sample?
Mystery solved by Benkert. Thanks for sharing his opinion. 
I don´t have Persoonia 18 (3) p. 383 where he published the species with Brouwer, so I even not thought in that one.

Raúl
Björn Wergen, 03-11-2011 18:08
Björn Wergen
Re : mysterious Octospora?
So my finding is the first record for germany (after the typus recorded in the netherlands 2004).

regards, kaz