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Thierry Blondelle
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Alan Rockefeller
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Miguel Ángel Ribes
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Masanori KutsunaDear all, Does anyone have these papers and send
Lophiostoma?
Gernot Friebes,
01-07-2010 20:06
here I have another indetermined pyrenomycet. The substrate is a branch most likely of Crataegus and there were only few ascomata on it. They didn't have compressed necks but because of the microscopical characters I still think it's a Lophiostoma, maybe a species next to L. quadrinucleatum/triseptatum? The quite tiny spores (11,5-15 x 5-6,5 µm) with constantly three septa are remarkable. The asci are 8-spored and bitunicate, paraphysoids are present. The ascomata are smooth and immersed.
By the way, is there any good paper about Lophiostoma(taceae) besides Barr's "Notes on Lophiostomataceae"?
Best wishes,
Gernot
ascomata:
Gernot Friebes,
01-07-2010 20:07
Re:Lophiostoma?
micros (scale=10 µm):
Christian Lechat,
01-07-2010 20:36
Re:Lophiostoma?
Maybe Lophiostoma maculans Fabre
Best regards,
Christian
Best regards,
Christian
Gernot Friebes,
01-07-2010 22:08
Re:Lophiostoma?
I thought about this species but my last find of L. maculans had larger spores (http://www.ascofrance.fr/index.php?r=forum&page=viewtopic&id=10802&highlight=maculans#msg10804).
The Index Fungorum shows Saccardo's Syll. fung. II as a citation of L. maculans where it says as an author citation: "H. Fab. Spher. Vaucl. pag. 59, fig. 39". I have some pages of Fabre's book and there fig. 39, on pl. 4, shows 5-septate spores which don't resemble L. maculans. Is this a mistake by Saccardo? However, fig. 52 on pl. 5 look somehow similar. Unfortunately, I don't have the page were it says which species this is. Maybe you have this page?
Peck gives in "The North American Pyrenomycetes" a length of 15-18 µm for L. triseptatum, I think that fits more or less with my find (especially since the really mature spores are always around 15 µm and I now found spores up to 16 µm).
Best wishes and sorry for my many questions,
Gernot
The Index Fungorum shows Saccardo's Syll. fung. II as a citation of L. maculans where it says as an author citation: "H. Fab. Spher. Vaucl. pag. 59, fig. 39". I have some pages of Fabre's book and there fig. 39, on pl. 4, shows 5-septate spores which don't resemble L. maculans. Is this a mistake by Saccardo? However, fig. 52 on pl. 5 look somehow similar. Unfortunately, I don't have the page were it says which species this is. Maybe you have this page?
Peck gives in "The North American Pyrenomycetes" a length of 15-18 µm for L. triseptatum, I think that fits more or less with my find (especially since the really mature spores are always around 15 µm and I now found spores up to 16 µm).
Best wishes and sorry for my many questions,
Gernot
Jacques Fournier,
01-07-2010 22:13
Re:Lophiostoma?
Hi gernot,
the morphology of spores indeed recalls L. maculans, (now placed in Thyridaria, but for how long?), but they are much too small and lack the typical coarsely verrucose (pitted) wall of maculans.
The rather small, 3-septate versicolorous spores with smooth wall might lead to a species described under Melanomma. I will check it when I have more time.
The best paper on Lophiostoma is that of Holm & Holm 1988 in Symbolae Botanicae Upsalienses XXVII:2 . Sorry I don't have as pdf.
Cheers,
jacques
the morphology of spores indeed recalls L. maculans, (now placed in Thyridaria, but for how long?), but they are much too small and lack the typical coarsely verrucose (pitted) wall of maculans.
The rather small, 3-septate versicolorous spores with smooth wall might lead to a species described under Melanomma. I will check it when I have more time.
The best paper on Lophiostoma is that of Holm & Holm 1988 in Symbolae Botanicae Upsalienses XXVII:2 . Sorry I don't have as pdf.
Cheers,
jacques
Gernot Friebes,
01-07-2010 23:07
Re:Lophiostoma?
Hi Jacques,
thanks for your answer. Melanomma could be a good alternative, right. I will check my (sparse) literature about this genus too, maybe we'll come to a result. Thank you also for your reference, I remember Christian mentioned this paper once. I hope I'll get it somehow because I am quite annoyed about the scanty literature I have on this genus...
Best wishes,
Gernot
thanks for your answer. Melanomma could be a good alternative, right. I will check my (sparse) literature about this genus too, maybe we'll come to a result. Thank you also for your reference, I remember Christian mentioned this paper once. I hope I'll get it somehow because I am quite annoyed about the scanty literature I have on this genus...
Best wishes,
Gernot
Gernot Friebes,
03-07-2010 10:56
Re:Lophiostoma?
News for all those who are interested: I found now a complete scan of Fabre's work and it seems that L. maculans isn't even mentioned there. Fig. 39, as it says in Saccardo's Sylloge Fungorum, shows spores of Navicella gaudefroyi (now Helicogermslita gaudefroyi) and the somehow similar looking spores (fig. 52) which I mentioned before are the spores of Lophiostoma juniperi.
For me the only explanation is a mistake in Saccardo's Sylloge Fungorum or I somehow don't see the obvious.
Best wishes,
Gernot
For me the only explanation is a mistake in Saccardo's Sylloge Fungorum or I somehow don't see the obvious.
Best wishes,
Gernot
Alain GARDIENNET,
03-07-2010 13:12
Re:Lophiostoma?
Hi Gernot,
I also think it isn't L. maculans.
Did you observe red colour on substrate or in neck zone ?
I am interested by Fabre's work, if it's possible for you.
Alain
I also think it isn't L. maculans.
Did you observe red colour on substrate or in neck zone ?
I am interested by Fabre's work, if it's possible for you.
Alain
Gernot Friebes,
03-07-2010 13:50
Re:Lophiostoma?
Hi Alain,
you mean because of Thyridaria? No, unfortunately I didn't see any particular colour but the ascomata were very old and so was the wood.
I'll send you an e-mail.
Best wishes,
Gernot
you mean because of Thyridaria? No, unfortunately I didn't see any particular colour but the ascomata were very old and so was the wood.
I'll send you an e-mail.
Best wishes,
Gernot
Jacques Fournier,
03-07-2010 16:33
Re:Lophiostoma?
Hi Gernot,
Fabre's work on pyrenomycetes consists of two different papers published respectively in 1878 and 1883. Lophiostoma maculans is indeed illustrated on figure 39, but in the second issue, and matches well what Barr moved to Thyridaria.
In the fIrst issue, n° 39 refers to Navicella gaudefroyi, afairly different species.
Try to get the 1883 paper scanned as well!
I attach a photo of the spores of T. maculans that I retrieved from my mess, you can see how the ornamentation is conspicuous.
Best wishes,
Jacques
Fabre's work on pyrenomycetes consists of two different papers published respectively in 1878 and 1883. Lophiostoma maculans is indeed illustrated on figure 39, but in the second issue, and matches well what Barr moved to Thyridaria.
In the fIrst issue, n° 39 refers to Navicella gaudefroyi, afairly different species.
Try to get the 1883 paper scanned as well!
I attach a photo of the spores of T. maculans that I retrieved from my mess, you can see how the ornamentation is conspicuous.
Best wishes,
Jacques
Gernot Friebes,
03-07-2010 17:20
Re:Lophiostoma?
Hi Jacques,
ok, that makes sense now. Thanks for clarifying!
The spores of L. maculans really look characteristically. I attach a photo of maculans cf. which I showed here in the forum (see the link above but it seems as if doesn't work). The spores were rough too but not as conspicuously ornamented as on your photo.
What do you think about L. quadrinucleatum or/var. triseptatum, could that possibly fit?
Best wishes,
Gernot
ok, that makes sense now. Thanks for clarifying!
The spores of L. maculans really look characteristically. I attach a photo of maculans cf. which I showed here in the forum (see the link above but it seems as if doesn't work). The spores were rough too but not as conspicuously ornamented as on your photo.
What do you think about L. quadrinucleatum or/var. triseptatum, could that possibly fit?
Best wishes,
Gernot
Jacques Fournier,
03-07-2010 17:43
Re:Lophiostoma?
cylindrical asci and verisicolorous spores do not match well Lophiostoma but better Melanomma. I checked the descriptions of Melanomma species in Holm 1957 but nothing is really convincing.
A better idea is needed.
Jacques
A better idea is needed.
Jacques
Gernot Friebes,
03-07-2010 17:56
Re:Lophiostoma?
ok, thanks again. I see, it's a very difficult one....
Best wishes,
Gernot
Best wishes,
Gernot
Peter Welt,
04-07-2010 11:01
Re:Lophiostoma?
Lieber Gernot,
kannst du mir die Arbeit von Fabre auch senden? Ich kenne die Arbeit nicht und kann auch im Netz nichts finden.
Noch eine Frage, kennt einer einen Schlüssel oder eine Arbeit über Herpotricha?
One more question, knows a work about a key or a Herpotricha?
Peter
kannst du mir die Arbeit von Fabre auch senden? Ich kenne die Arbeit nicht und kann auch im Netz nichts finden.
Noch eine Frage, kennt einer einen Schlüssel oder eine Arbeit über Herpotricha?
One more question, knows a work about a key or a Herpotricha?
Peter
Martin Bemmann,
04-07-2010 12:10
Re:Lophiostoma?
Hallo Peter,
Herpotrichia gibts z.B. hier:
http://www.cybertruffle.org.uk/cyberliber/59575/0020/001/0001.htm
Grüße,
Martin
Herpotrichia gibts z.B. hier:
http://www.cybertruffle.org.uk/cyberliber/59575/0020/001/0001.htm
Grüße,
Martin
Peter Welt,
04-07-2010 12:19
Re:Lophiostoma?
Danke Martin,
habe ich auch schon gespeichert, aber manchmal verliert man den Überblick :-)
Peter
habe ich auch schon gespeichert, aber manchmal verliert man den Überblick :-)
Peter