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Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
François Valade,
30-03-2013 21:25
HelloA small yellow Bryoscyphus sp? on moss, Pleurozium schreberi has been collected in february 2013 by Mila Tanaskovic in Fontainebleau (F).
She gave me a part of her collection and it needs to stay three weeks in the bottom of the fridge to see some spores.
apothecia are stipitate, 1-2 mm high, diam. 1 (2) mm
spores ellipsoid-fusiform, sometime with one septum, OCI low
N= 20 ; 12,3-14,8 x 2,8-3,8 Qm= 4
ascus with croziers, 60-70 x10 µm,IKI +
excipulum textura epidermoidea?
paraphysis filiform, 2 µ wide
In Zotto's dvd (pictures and Bernard Declercq's key), I found Helotium ("Bryoscyphus") phascoides that can fit this collection, but the color is white.
Have you any idea about it?
thanks in advance
cheers
François
Alain GARDIENNET,
30-03-2013 21:35
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Salut François,
Ca ne va pas t'aider mais j'ai déjà une récolte analogue.
JPP pourrait t'en parler, je lui avais mlis dans ses pattes, n'ayant abouti à rien.
Mes apothécies devenaient rose-orange avec l'âge, as-tu observé cela sr cette récolte ?
Alain
Ca ne va pas t'aider mais j'ai déjà une récolte analogue.
JPP pourrait t'en parler, je lui avais mlis dans ses pattes, n'ayant abouti à rien.
Mes apothécies devenaient rose-orange avec l'âge, as-tu observé cela sr cette récolte ?
Alain
François Valade,
30-03-2013 21:47
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
salut Alain
as tu des photos ou dessins à montrer?
Amitiés
François
as tu des photos ou dessins à montrer?
Amitiés
François
Stip Helleman,
30-03-2013 21:58
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Hi Francois,
it seems to be difficult to say what the color in a natural environment with daylight should be.
It could be that the color remained yellow because the lack of dayllight (UV) to bleach it.
Stip
it seems to be difficult to say what the color in a natural environment with daylight should be.
It could be that the color remained yellow because the lack of dayllight (UV) to bleach it.
Stip
Alain GARDIENNET,
30-03-2013 22:41
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Exactement le même.
La mousse était aussi Pleurozium schreberi, trouvé le 3-3-2011.
Il était aussi jaune que le tien.
Et j'avais noté pour la micro :
Asques octosporés J+, spores de forme et taille variable, oblongues en général mais je donne une fourchette raisonnable de 13-15 x 3-4.5 µm, guttulées, parfois 1-septées..
J'ai pas mal de photos et d'autres données si nécessaire .
M^me croziers et même paraphyses que pour ta récolte.
Alain
For Stip : it is constantly yellow, like Bisporella.
La mousse était aussi Pleurozium schreberi, trouvé le 3-3-2011.
Il était aussi jaune que le tien.
Et j'avais noté pour la micro :
Asques octosporés J+, spores de forme et taille variable, oblongues en général mais je donne une fourchette raisonnable de 13-15 x 3-4.5 µm, guttulées, parfois 1-septées..
J'ai pas mal de photos et d'autres données si nécessaire .
M^me croziers et même paraphyses que pour ta récolte.
Alain
For Stip : it is constantly yellow, like Bisporella.
Alain GARDIENNET,
30-03-2013 22:52
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Prends contact avec JPP, il doit avoir tout gardé.
Je crois qu'au regard du tractus il était parti vers les Calycinella.
Mais Calycinella inconnu.
Très chouette en tout cas.
Je sais où le retrouver s'il le fallait.
Alain
Je crois qu'au regard du tractus il était parti vers les Calycinella.
Mais Calycinella inconnu.
Très chouette en tout cas.
Je sais où le retrouver s'il le fallait.
Alain
François Valade,
31-03-2013 09:33
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
merci Alain. Attendons la réponse de JPP.
Hans-Otto Baral,
31-03-2013 10:55
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
wonderfull collection! This is never a Bryoscyphus, because that genus has a Hymenoscyphus type of apical ring and paraphyses full of strongly refractive VBs.
Instead, it reminds me strongly of a fungus found on the hepatique Nowellia. I have it in my files in the genus Roseodiscus, though only because of lack of a better opinion. Yours should be the same genus though not conspecific: that on Nowellia has shorter spores an a hemiamyloid apical ring (RR). Yours is directly blue in IKI I assume.
I thought we had the Nowellia fungus already in the forum, but I cannot find it. Here is my plate and a drawing by Lothar (I never saw mature material).
Zotto
Instead, it reminds me strongly of a fungus found on the hepatique Nowellia. I have it in my files in the genus Roseodiscus, though only because of lack of a better opinion. Yours should be the same genus though not conspecific: that on Nowellia has shorter spores an a hemiamyloid apical ring (RR). Yours is directly blue in IKI I assume.
I thought we had the Nowellia fungus already in the forum, but I cannot find it. Here is my plate and a drawing by Lothar (I never saw mature material).
Zotto
Helotiales-HB-9478-0001.jpg
François Valade,
31-03-2013 11:16
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
thank you Zotto. Yes IKI directly blue.
Mila told me she knew the place well, so I think that new fresh collection is possible.
I keep the exsiccatum for further investigations.
cheers
François
Mila told me she knew the place well, so I think that new fresh collection is possible.
I keep the exsiccatum for further investigations.
cheers
François
Gernot Friebes,
31-03-2013 19:02
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Hi,
last year G. Bauer sent me photos and material of a similar fungus growing on Lophozia in the Bavarian Forest. I have not been able to find a name for this species either.
Attached are pictures taken by G. Bauer and his description (translated).
Best wishes,
Gernot
on mossy granite rock.
Moss: Lophozia (according to Dr. Oliver Dürhammer possibly L. ventricosa)
last year G. Bauer sent me photos and material of a similar fungus growing on Lophozia in the Bavarian Forest. I have not been able to find a name for this species either.
Attached are pictures taken by G. Bauer and his description (translated).
Best wishes,
Gernot
on mossy granite rock.
Moss: Lophozia (according to Dr. Oliver Dürhammer possibly L. ventricosa)
Apos. 0,5 - 1,5 mm, yellow-orange with lighter colored margin; underside light yellow; stipe hardly present; numerous on dead moss.
Sp. (11,5) 13-15 x 3-3,5 µ, partially 1-septate.
Asci 55-62 µ long , Melzers / IKI +, with croziers (difficult to observe)
Paraphyses filiform, septate, branched
Hairs +- straight, smooth
Conspicuity: in tap water or aqua dest. some apothecia change their color to pink, in KOH they immediately turn wine red.
Gernot Friebes,
31-03-2013 19:05
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
and here are my photos of the material he sent to me. Unfortunately it was immature. The ascospores showed strange deformations, maybe it's a Helicogonium growing parasitically on this species.
Hans-Otto Baral,
31-03-2013 21:22
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Yes, Gernot, I forgot that this one on Lophozia might be different from that on Nowellia.
Now, here is a nice drawing by Bernd Fellmann on such a Lophozia collection by Günter Bauer.
Resembles indeed that of Francois. I see that in KOH the yellow turns pink! Can you test that, Francois?
Zotto
Now, here is a nice drawing by Bernd Fellmann on such a Lophozia collection by Günter Bauer.
Resembles indeed that of Francois. I see that in KOH the yellow turns pink! Can you test that, Francois?
Zotto
François Valade,
31-03-2013 22:53
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Zotto I can do it. I has to put an apothecia in a 5% KOH drop, right?
Hans-Otto Baral,
31-03-2013 22:55
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
or put a drop of KOH on an apothecium. I did not do it myself, I only realize Bernd's note
François Valade,
31-03-2013 23:29
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
you are right! apo slightly turns purplish in 5% KOH
Hans-Otto Baral,
01-04-2013 09:59
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Not I am right but Bernd :-)
But Alain, are you sure with Pleurozium? Your photo suggests a hepatique, perhaps Lophozia?
Zotto
But Alain, are you sure with Pleurozium? Your photo suggests a hepatique, perhaps Lophozia?
Zotto
François Valade,
01-04-2013 10:38
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
so for the moment there is not genus with such features?
Hans-Otto Baral,
01-04-2013 10:43
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
I suggest Luteodiscus gen. nov. :-)
Alain GARDIENNET,
01-04-2013 17:20
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Zotto,
I agree with you. For me at first, I recognized Lophozia (or Barbilophozia too).
I remember having sent material to JPP and he answers to me that it was also on Pleurozium shreberi.
In conclusion : Luteodiscus primoaprilus comes on both.
Alain
I agree with you. For me at first, I recognized Lophozia (or Barbilophozia too).
I remember having sent material to JPP and he answers to me that it was also on Pleurozium shreberi.
In conclusion : Luteodiscus primoaprilus comes on both.
Alain
Hans-Otto Baral,
01-04-2013 20:49
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Alain: do you also have micros for your find? And was Pleurozium also present there, or was that a different collection by JeanPaul?
Zotto
Zotto
Alain GARDIENNET,
02-04-2013 18:58
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Hi Zotto,
the record on the 2 bryo is obly one record. I sent a piece to JPP.
Here are somes pictures, on both.
I rember that there also was a black disco with Capronia spores-like.
the record on the 2 bryo is obly one record. I sent a piece to JPP.
Here are somes pictures, on both.
I rember that there also was a black disco with Capronia spores-like.
Jean-Paul Priou,
02-04-2013 19:10
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
I have difficulties to translate my message since yesterday night
About Alain collection, I called it Calycellina luteorosea. The tractus seems very close to Calycina type, but the new genera Roseodicus Baral is close too.The apos grown on Barbilophozia, Pleurozium and Hypnum cupressiforme. It's not rare when the apos are very abundant, they colonize all bryo around.
About Alain collection, I called it Calycellina luteorosea. The tractus seems very close to Calycina type, but the new genera Roseodicus Baral is close too.The apos grown on Barbilophozia, Pleurozium and Hypnum cupressiforme. It's not rare when the apos are very abundant, they colonize all bryo around.
Iki were BB without KHO pretreatment. The micro agree with François pics
Apos first golden yellow becoming pinkish. Reaction koh on apos no tested.
I join micro and Alain photo with apos on Hypnum cupressiforme with curved leaves.
jpp
JPP?
Jean-Paul Priou,
02-04-2013 19:12
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
twe two pics
François Valade,
02-04-2013 19:19
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Happy to read you Jean-Paul, you were missing this subject.
Does this species already exist or is to be created?
Kenavo
Does this species already exist or is to be created?
Kenavo
Alain GARDIENNET,
02-04-2013 19:35
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Nom de nom, voilà le béret ! On a réveillé la bête ...
Alain GARDIENNET,
02-04-2013 19:38
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Si le besoin se faisait sentir, je peux rechercher du matériel frais.
Jeudi, je serai peut-être dans le secteur.
Bonne soirée à tous,
Alain
Jeudi, je serai peut-être dans le secteur.
Bonne soirée à tous,
Alain
Alain GARDIENNET,
02-04-2013 19:39
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Jean-Paul, tu as dû te tromper dans ta fiche de notes, non ?
Gernot Friebes,
02-04-2013 19:44
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
If needed, I can also ask Günter Bauer to collect fresh material. The fungus seems to be occuring on this location every year.
It's nice to have data of several finds now!
Best wishes,
Gernot
It's nice to have data of several finds now!
Best wishes,
Gernot
Hans-Otto Baral,
02-04-2013 20:29
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
So I still do not understand what's the bryo on Alain's photo. Also I assume JeanPaul means that the IKI reaction was RR as on his drawing, not BB?
It might finally turn out that on all these bryophytes and liverworts the very same fungus is growing....
Zotto
It might finally turn out that on all these bryophytes and liverworts the very same fungus is growing....
Zotto
Jean-Paul Priou,
02-04-2013 22:51
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Oups ! the good sketch
Jean-Paul Priou,
02-04-2013 22:55
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
bonsoir François, non ce n'était qu'un nom de travail. Connaissant Alain, il va nous retrouver une brouette pour chacun.
JPP
JPP
Hans-Otto Baral,
03-04-2013 09:38
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Oh, yes, now we have the following situation:
- Francois' and Alain's finds on Pleurozium (etc.?) react IKI BB
- Lothar's collection on Nowellia reacts RR
- G. Bauer's collections on Lophozia appear to be RB after Bernd Fellmann's statement.
I need to check Lothar's specimen whether it turns pink in KOH. Hope that further differences exist between these...
Zotto
- Francois' and Alain's finds on Pleurozium (etc.?) react IKI BB
- Lothar's collection on Nowellia reacts RR
- G. Bauer's collections on Lophozia appear to be RB after Bernd Fellmann's statement.
I need to check Lothar's specimen whether it turns pink in KOH. Hope that further differences exist between these...
Zotto
Edvin Johannesen,
20-01-2017 13:46
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Hi! I am quite certain that I have this yellow species growing on Hypnum cupressiforme from Norway. Reddish discolouring in KOH, spore shape and size, K+ reaction etc. all match. Did you ever arrive at a conclusion regarding this?
Hans-Otto Baral,
20-01-2017 14:29
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Hi Edvin
no news. I am still waiting for molecular data.
Zotto
no news. I am still waiting for molecular data.
Zotto
Edvin Johannesen,
08-09-2017 22:38
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Any news on this?
Hans-Otto Baral,
08-09-2017 22:51
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Indeed an ITS and LSU sequence now exists of Enrique's sample ERD 6988. Its placement is difficult, however. LSU Blast gives with 96-97% Urceolella crispula & Calycina populina, ITS Blast gives only uncultured, nothing with a name.
Zotto
Zotto
Edvin Johannesen,
09-09-2017 13:26
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Thanks!
Enrique Rubio,
20-02-2020 23:45
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
This is a spanish collection (La Coruña) by Antonio Couceiro on Pleurozium. The ascomata have a pale pinkish reaction in KOH.
Robin Isaksson,
21-03-2020 20:04
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Hi!
Found this one today aswell (Sweden), Match good with Francois' and Alain's finds but this is on Dicranum i believe. spores 12-15um, IKI Blue, react pink in koh 10%. ascus 8-10,5 and up to 85 um long, with croziers even thats its hard to see.
pictures seen in Koh and lugols
Regards
Found this one today aswell (Sweden), Match good with Francois' and Alain's finds but this is on Dicranum i believe. spores 12-15um, IKI Blue, react pink in koh 10%. ascus 8-10,5 and up to 85 um long, with croziers even thats its hard to see.
pictures seen in Koh and lugols
Regards
Hans-Otto Baral,
21-03-2020 22:07
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Hello
your ascus/paraphysis pics look like being in KOH? Did you test IKI after KOH? Imprtant is to add IKI to water.
The spores look rather small, is it true? What is their width?
Looks indeed like Dicranum/Dicranella.
Zotto
Robin Isaksson,
21-03-2020 22:41
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Hi,
I tested both. same result. Lugols+koh =blue and water+Lugols= blue
Add some pictures seen in water and Lugols. spore width is 3,5-4 um
Regards
I tested both. same result. Lugols+koh =blue and water+Lugols= blue
Add some pictures seen in water and Lugols. spore width is 3,5-4 um
Regards
Hans-Otto Baral,
21-03-2020 23:18
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
This is good now, many thanks! There exist samples of this group in which the apical ring reacts red in IKI but blue after KOH.
Do you mind sending m the collection data of this? I am collecting data for a publication in the hopefully not too far future.
Hans-Otto Baral,
24-03-2020 17:15
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
I am sorry, I am unable, my time does not allow this.
I can give you coments if you supply more data (more spores, spore size).
Ingo Ibelshäuser,
19-04-2023 17:44
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Bonjour les ascophiles, je suis très content d'avoir trouvé ce forum mycologique. C'est mon premier post sur ce forum et je ne connais pas encore les conventions- alors n'hésitez pas à m' informer si vous avez des suggestions ou corrections. Merci! Je vais ecrire en anglais parce que ça fait des décennies que j'ai appris le français à l'école. Pourtant je comprends mieux que je parle, répondez alors en français.
Hello,
I found this collection of yellow Helotiales on moss growing on granite rocks 04/10/2023 near Wunsiedel, south-eastern germany approx. 800m above sealevel. As colonized moss on that location was at least 3 different species (Polytrichum cf. commune, Dicranum spec., cf. Hypnum spec.- or Pleurozium?) at first I dismissed the idea of a moss parasite, which usually seem to be quite host-specific. Yet a colleague sent me a link to your discussion here and it looks to me like it is a related species as to what François and Alain showed here. Has "Luteodiscus" been established in the meantime?
Ascocarps were bright lemon-yellow on front and backside, width approx. 0.4-0.8mm. Margin with tiny hairs. Flat/ no apparent stem. Colour changes with KOH 5% to purple-red. Growing directly on "leaves" and "stem" (gametophytes) of mosses.
Microscopically asci were pointed like a pencil towards the tip, porus often excentric, IKI+ (BB), croziers+, approx. 70 × 8µm.
Paraphyses filiform, partially septate, sometimes branched (see pictures). Spores fusiform, yet somewhat polymorph, one end often tapering, multiguttulate, one nucleus. Size from sporecast (11.8) 12.4 - 16.4 (20.3) × (2.9) 3.1 - 3.8 (4.1) µm Q = (3.3) 3.5 - 4.9 (5.4) ; N = 41 (Piximetre, classical formula).
What do you think of it? If you need more details just ask, i still guard it in the fridge.
Thank you in andvance, merci bien
Ingo
Hans-Otto Baral,
19-04-2023 20:16
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Hi Ingo, welcome!
indeed this is Luteodiscus bryophilus as we want to call it. The paper is under work but far from finished.
A small correction: paraphyses are always septate, the septa often difficult to see. The contents are interesting, they are VBs and vary in this species between faintly to strongly refractive. Also the spores contain VBs of low refraction, only those with high contrast are LBs.
As I am preparing a distribution plate I would be happy to include your specimen, of course with citation and acknowledgement. Therefore I need the coordinates. Good would be to better clarify the hosts. I would suggest Dicranum scoparium but I am not good in mosses. The cf. Hypnum is not well visible on your photos. helpful would be to make microphotos of the leaf of this moss.
Now I noticed that your scales of asci cannot be true, I arrive at 100 x 13-15 µm. Perhaps 25 µm is closer to the truth.
You can send me also photos by mail (zotto@arcor.de)
Thanks
Zotto
Ingo Ibelshäuser,
19-04-2023 22:16
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Hello Zotto,
thank you for your comment and confirmation of the mentioned species!
I obviously overlooked most paraphyse's septae as I am not used looking for septae, probably I should focus through whole thickness and adjust contrast to find them.
And you are absolutely right, the scale dispayed in the pictures must be wrong. The reason will be that I cropped the images to upload it here and the program I used to imply the scale uses the amount of pixel to create it, (i thought i uses the presets of my lenses) which therefore was not calibrated. I will correct it. Yet the measurements mentioned in the text are correct, as I did them before cropping the picture.
Concerning the host species I am about to take microscopic pictures of the mosses before I will dry the rest for documentation. With Polytrichum I am pretty sure, with the rest not. Maybe I could ask a moss specialist I know for determination.
I would be happy to contribute to your paper and will send you the pictures in full resolution (with correct scalebar) and the coordinates (MTB) to your email.
Kind regards,
Ingo
Hans-Otto Baral,
20-04-2023 08:50
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Thanks, MTB and subquadrants is too inaccurate, but you can send a small map or evaluate WGS84 coordinates in Google Earth or G. Maps or this one: https://www.orchids.de/haynold/koordinatenermittler2/.
Hans-Otto Baral,
24-04-2023 10:51
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Hallo Ingo, konntest du die Koordinaten klären?
Danke!
Zotto
Ingo Ibelshäuser,
24-04-2023 22:06
Re : Bryoscyphus sp? on moss
Hello Zotto, you got an email. Also I could determine mosses with help of a bryologist as Polytrichum commune, Dicranum cf scoparium and Hypnum cupressiforme agg.
Best regards, Ingo